Comments on: Life before birth, according to the Bible

By: Steve Callan

Steve Callan — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 20:09:50 +0000

(just saw ruth’s post – what she said!)

By: Steve Callan

Steve Callan — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 20:08:07 +0000

will be interested to read your blog when you put it up.

I didn’t find that article particularly convincing, and it wasn’t written in particularly loving way – an issue like this needs to be tackled with sensitivity.

the exodus and numbers passages were interesting though, and definitely bear thinking on. i’d be interested to know what some of the scholars say about them.

I’m not sold on the line that God decreed 1/3 of pregnancies be terminated – that’s a pretty complex theological issue right there that has just been assumed in one line.

one of the biggest issue for me is the idea that we’re not a living being until the first breath. an baby but is about to be born has a heartbeat, brain function, and working organs – how is that not a living being? using adam as an example is terrible logic, as his creation was hardly “normal”. the job 33 passage is a misuse of the idea of breath; the second line is echoing the first – breath of God = spirit of God. I suspect the same for ezekiel.

perhaps the biggest theological issue jumps out in the first paragraph – the idea that we don’t have a soul until we’re born and take our first breath. I’m really not convinced that the bible separates out soul and body in the way that the writer suggests. it’s a huge assumption, and it really underpins his entire argument. one of the lecturers here has been talking about this recently, and I respect his opinions more than most – he holds that the idea of our soul being a separate “thing” is wrong. I haven’t got my head around it, but it’s an important thing to work out

By: Josh Marshall

Josh Marshall — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 13:49:42 +0000

Josh Marshall liked this on Facebook.

By: Ruth Nadine

Ruth Nadine — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 11:17:30 +0000

Interesting to think through…. Breath in the bible is usually in reference to spirit – for Adam and the army in the valley of dry bones they were motionless bodies. You can’t compare them to a kicking little munchkin in the womb, that is just thoughtless.

By: Skye Callan

Skye Callan — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 08:29:21 +0000

thanks for posting this Luke, interesting line of thought. I agree that there is no room to judge those that have an abortion, and that Christians don’t have to vote republican! I feel like a few of the points are a bit flimsy in my mind…
1) because 1/3 pregnancies end in miscarriage = God thinks equally of a foreskin and an unborn child. That needs to be expanded on as I don’t see the connection, or rather, at this point I don’t agree with that connection

2)If God did order an abortion in Numbers 5, that doesn’t mean it’s ok for us to do the same. God has a different set of rules to us, since, you know, he wrote the rules. And it doesn’t mean that God doesn’t grieve when it happens.

As an aside, but still relevant, even if we do come to the conclusion that life doesn’t start until breath is inhaled, that is not reason enough for me to be comfortable with the idea of aborting because it suits the parents. Not totally sure why, I need to think it through more.

By: Tom Edwards

Tom Edwards — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 08:22:39 +0000

time sectional view of universe much, and also basic genetics.

By: Luke Arms

Luke Arms — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 06:47:16 +0000

Agreed, Clare, and having met many stillborns and their parents via Heartfelt, that line of thinking is never far from my mind. Thanks for your thoughts too, Cecily and Daphne.

If nothing else, examining arguments like these highlights that there are no simple answers to the questions that underly the ethics of abortion; all sides, Christian or otherwise, respond emotionally/culturally/instinctively, and THEN find evidence to support their conclusion.

I had a go at blogging on the issue a couple of years back; might have another go soonish.

By: Daphne Paris

Daphne Paris — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 06:36:48 +0000

I think its true that we can’t judge women who have had abortions but to say that a fetus is not a person until it draws breath is a bit simplistic and arbitrary. Who are we to say what stage of development defines personhood or when a person should live or die? I always felt that deliberate abortion (as opposed to miscarriage) was unnatural and unethical in most situations. The just plain “wrongness” of it didn’t sink in till I took my bio science undergrad and I realised how complex and beautiful the human body is at all stages of life. At every point in our lives we have potential to change physically but also to be better people. A fetus has more potential than anyone and I don’t think we can deny that little one from being someone great.

By: Clare Willis McLoughlin

Clare Willis McLoughlin — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 05:36:34 +0000

Their opinion that ‘a fetus is not a living person with a soul until it draws its first breath’ is pretty insulting to parents who have lost a child who never took that first breath.

By: mrtiedt

mrtiedt — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 04:49:48 +0000

@lkrms #My2Cents

By: mrtiedt

mrtiedt — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 04:49:40 +0000

@lkrms I don’t think the Bible tells us. Period. You can interrogate hose metaphors all you want, but they ain’t about start of life.

By: Cecily Arms Rosol

Cecily Arms Rosol — Mon, 07 Oct 2013 04:37:56 +0000

Interesting points. I think they dismiss the ‘I knew you before you were born’ verses a bit to quickly and glibbly. I’ll ponder the rest. I certainly don’t sit in the conservative evangelical camp on this one, but neither do I sit in the pro-choice camp. If it’s possible to be neutral, then I would say I’m close to neutral. I do have a blog post simmering in my head on this one. Might even get around to writing it one day. :-)