Comments on: John Piper on Roman Catholic “heresy”

By: Neil James Foster

Neil James Foster — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 15:51:04 +0000

Neil James Foster liked this on Facebook.

By: Clare Willis McLoughlin

Clare Willis McLoughlin — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:50:16 +0000

Agreed, Scott Hahn explains Catholic theology and spirituality really well.
Luke the things you have mentioned here are things most Catholics have heard before and taken to Christ in prayer asking for discernment. I will try to get to the PC to participate in this discussion (difficult to type much on the phone while juggling the little ones!) There is a lot of misinformation around about what Catholics actually believe, which means many posts like the one you linked are simply debating against a straw man.

By: Daphne Paris

Daphne Paris — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:49:28 +0000

Anyway all that said, I can totally understand your views, there are many catholics, even good pious mass -every-day, well meaning ones who don’t put faith into works, and often don’t know the reasons why they’re even going through the motions. Fortunately, there is room for everyone but we all have a responsibility to look for the truth. So like Kim said, do look out… you would make a good Catholic lol.#mostdaphneswrittenonfb.#ever.

By: Luke Arms

Luke Arms — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:49:18 +0000

It’s not just clinical, it’s arbitrary … e.g. “I prayed [to/via] Mary Mackillop and my cancer went away” … as if any human judge could reasonably conclude that this meant anything about Mary in this life or the next.

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:46:39 +0000

Because you can’t know who is in heaven but after meeting the criteria (yes it sounds very clinical) certain people are held up as examples to be followed.

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:45:20 +0000

What makes the current scandals so horrific is that the Church is charged with shining God’s light to the world.
These revelations have not only damaged countless people but clearly turned lots of people away.

By: Luke Arms

Luke Arms — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:45:11 +0000

So if anyone in heaven is a saint, why the rigmarole of canonisation?

By: Daphne Paris

Daphne Paris — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:43:47 +0000

And saints, yes, we cannot bestow any kind of supernatural status, that’s Gods job lol. Anyone in heaven is a saint, those who we have good reason to believe are in heaven are named saints by us to provide good examples of Christian life and the way to get to heaven. Which is why JP2 canonised so many from different walks of life.

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:42:08 +0000

On Mary and the saints if you could get a copy of ‘Hail Holy Queen’ by Scott Hann you’d get answers to all those questions. He was a Presbyterian theologian and minister who went from believing all those misconceptions to researching Catholicism for himself and reluctantly becoming Catholic. He details his conversion in ‘Rome Sweet Home’- a bit American Corny but if you want to hear Catholicism explained by someone with a background in Protestant theology it’s brilliant.

By: Luke Arms

Luke Arms — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:40:02 +0000

Will add those things to my reading list, thanks :) Also, I need to say: I love and respect all of the passionate Catholics I know personally, which obviously includes all who have commented here, and several who haven’t. Our beliefs differ in ways I think are important, but I don’t doubt their salvation or anything like that.

That’s not to say I’m a fan of the institution of Roman Catholicism, however. It’s at least as flawed as every other system of church government (including Protestant ones!), and probably more, especially in light of current scandals.

By: Daphne Paris

Daphne Paris — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:38:30 +0000

Lol just reread ‘pide their merit’. Read ‘lose’.

By: Daphne Paris

Daphne Paris — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:37:24 +0000

On Mary – God asked of her the most important, difficult and beautiful task in history, to be his mother. Jesus loves his mother, so we do too. Just as with all other saints, as Kim said, we pray via her, to God. But certainly she deserves our affection at least for her relationship to God and her role in our redemption.

By: Clare Willis McLoughlin

Clare Willis McLoughlin — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:34:32 +0000

Another Catholic here agreeing with Kim.

By: Daphne Paris

Daphne Paris — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:32:30 +0000

On mary and the pope: we love our pope, that much is pretty obvious esp these last few days. He’s not only the head of the church on earth, he’s the vicar of Christ, Gods rep on earth, not God himself, and not a saint until he’s in heaven. We don’t worship him, we love him. Of course the celebrity of the Pope causes lots of hype, so ok, I see where you’re coming from. But he is just a man with a very important job and vocation, who we love and pray for.

By: Luke Arms

Luke Arms — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:29:44 +0000

I guess that depends how you define “worship”. I would contend that the euphoria surrounding papal appearances and transitions, not to mention his title (“your holiness”), his supposed infallibility (depending on which Catholic you ask), the kissing, the bowing, the photos in every Catholic church, etc. look a whole lot like worship. Call it something else if you like, but in my view it’s not at all a healthy response to a mere man. World Youth Day Sydney was chock-full of this sort of thing. Don’t get me started on indulgences!

As for praying to dead saints or via dead saints (another subtlety not clear to all of the faithful — do you need me to dig up quotes?), perhaps you can explain to me how / where / why we’re commended to do this? I’m unaware of any biblical precedent for it, so can’t help seeing it as a complete waste of time (at best – idolising dead saints at worst).

By: Daphne Paris

Daphne Paris — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:26:51 +0000

Oh, I tried the link from my phone and didn’t work. Phone thing, fail. Anyway, I absolutely concur with what Kim said about faith and works – faith must be put into practice, but even good works which lack charity and humility pide their merit. The two are inseparable. Also recommend Jesus of Nazareth, and the compendium of the catechism if the catholic church for a good summary of the church faith.

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:19:30 +0000

But you should probably check your school is happy to employ Catholics before looking into it because every Protestant I know who has researched Catholicism for themselves has become Catholic (myself included). :-)

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:11:39 +0000

Honestly- ever Catholic I know believes what I do about grace. But if you want to do some light reading on the Catholic opinion of Jesus the last pope wrote a book called ‘Jesus of Nazareth’. It should clear up some misconceptions.

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:10:26 +0000

Catholics don’t pope or Mary worship and they don’t pray TO saints- they ask saints to pray for them as part of the communion of saints. If you think that’s wrong you probably shouldn’t ask your Christian friends to pray for you

By: Luke Arms

Luke Arms — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:09:51 +0000

There are more comments on the blog post, by the way. (Facebook ones are copied over automatically.) And Daphne, if you click on the heading, it will take you to the full text of the original post I was quoting from :)

By: Luke Arms

Luke Arms — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:08:30 +0000

It’s fantastic that you’re a Catholic who believes that, Kim :) How confident are you that you speak for a clear majority of Catholics? And how evident do you think “salvation by grace alone” is in the traditions, rites and overall culture of Roman Catholicism?

As for idolatry, I’m not just talking about statues (although I suspect many Catholics didn’t get the memo about them being mere reminders!) … I’m talking about Pope-worship (he’s just a man!), Mary-worship (she was just a woman!), the notion of canonisation (as if humans can bestow on other humans, especially dead ones, some sort of supreme supernatural status), praying to anyone except the Godhead …

By: Luke

Luke — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 01:01:00 +0000

Cecily, if this were a comprehensive response to the election of Pope Francis, I’d take your point. But it doesn’t even attempt to be. It’s simply a clear statement regarding the difference between salvation by grace and salvation by works.

Incidentally, I’m cautiously optimistic that Pope Francis will usher in a “better” era for the Catholic church.. but unpacking what that might look like is no small task.

Also, how typical that you would come out Piper-bashing ;) For what it’s worth, I’m not even close to being his biggest fan … much of what he says is arrogant and entirely lacking in nuance. I didn’t have a major problem with this piece, though.

(I assume everyone is clicking on the heading to see his full post, not just my excerpt?)

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:54:18 +0000

A note on ‘idols’. Catholics don’t have statues to worship them but purely as a reminder, such as I keep photos of my grandparents because they were people I loved and looked up to.

By: Daphne Paris

Daphne Paris — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:52:36 +0000

The Catholic church rejects idolatory to start with, but I can see why it might not be seen that way in practice, due to devotions to various images of saints etc – note devotion, not worship. The first commandment and the Catechism makes the position on idolatry very clear. I’m not sure what John Piper means by neglecting or denying precious truths. I agree with the statement in theory, but what is he referring to?

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:52:05 +0000

They match a view of misinformation and what is traditionally said by Protestants about Catholics. The Catholic position is that we are saved by grace, given the gift of faith and that works are a natural by-product of faith. This links in to James’ comments that ‘faith without works is dead’. Faith and works (to a Catholic) are inseparable because if you have the gift of faith and are following Christ you can’t help but produce good works.

By: Luke Arms

Luke Arms — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:37:37 +0000

Would you care to be specific, Kim? From talking with Catholics and former Catholics, I’d say his comments pretty accurately reflect prevailing views (even though I’m sure they don’t match the position of every church/priest/Catholic).

By: cecily

cecily — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:27:48 +0000

On such article: http://sojo.net/blogs/2013/03/14/rebuild-my-church
Still speaks out on the issues that need addressing but also rejoices in the positives to be seen.

By: Kim Smith

Kim Smith — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:20:20 +0000

Wow. His claims are so far removed from what the Catholic church teaches he should probably stick to commenting on subject matter he knows.

By: cecily

cecily — Fri, 15 Mar 2013 00:17:08 +0000

How typical that John Piper comes out in judgement of the Pope. From my other readings, the Pope has said some things well worth listening to, and I for one want to celebrate the good in what he has said (while not denying the untruths). Surely that is a more helpful way than jumping straight to polemic and setting myself up as a judge?

By: sjmcdowell

sjmcdowell — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:51:57 +0000

@lkrms presumably he counts himself in on that?

By: SJDM87

SJDM87 — Thu, 14 Mar 2013 22:05:42 +0000

RT @lkrms: Blogged: John Piper on Roman Catholic “heresy” http://t.co/t87kqnMxnD